CHANGING SEEDS...

[DENISEVOLEI]

Someone mentioned my name? ;-)

Hi Denise, nice to see you here too.  Inferno is a great place to be! :lol:
I think Denise already "knows" me from my forum in Portuguese.  

BTW, I actually work here in Finland... I'm glad I already finished my studies (actually, I finished my studies almost 10 years ago! )

HELLO LUCA....

THANK YOU FOR YOUR REGARDS... NICE TO SEE YOU TOO...
.. YES... I KNOW YOU FROM YOUR PORTUGUESE FORUM... I`M A MEMBER THERE TOO...
ONE MORE TIME THANK YOU...
CHEERS
DENISE

[DENISEVOLEI]

The main problem is that there has been some cases in which people from Japan and the US have registered (patented) some brazilian plant/fruit varieties as been from their native country (and not from Brazil).  This is called bio-piracy and the government has taken some actions to try to stop it from happenenig.  So, in fact, it is illegal to "export" seeds/plants/fruits of wild species.  For this reason, it is not easy to get seeds via the "official" path.

Embrapa (Brazilian Agricultural Research Corporation) collects, identifies, studies and preserves the germplasm of these wild species.  But there are so many different plants spread out around the country (and certainly some species which remain unknown) that, in my opinion, it is impossible for them to do the job alone.  Embrapa doesn't provide seeds for private use, only for research done inside Brazil.  And they don't encourage (or inform) the general public to collect and help them in the task of cataloging and studying brazilian wild flora (capsicum or else).  (Note: this is not the official policy, just what I found out when trying to contact them)

These wild species seem to be rather common throughout Brazil, but brazilian people is not aware of them, therefore they remain mostly unknown or unnoticed

.... I AGREE WITH YOU LUCA... THAT ARE A LOT A LOT OF RULES ABOUT SEEDS ... I SEND A E-MAIL TO OUR AGRICULTURAL MINISTERY AND THEM THEY SEND TO ME SOME ANSWERS.. TELLIN ME ALL THE RESTRICTIONS THAT WE HAVE.. I WILL SEND IT TO YOU... AND IF YOU WANT YOU CAN TRANSLATE AND POST HERE...
REGARDS
DENISE

[Tupakka]

EXCUSES MY ENGLISH MISTAKES... BUT I TRY MY BEST...

Your english isn't the problem.

The problem is that quite annoying habit of yours. We can read uncapitalized text. Please don't use THE CAPITAL LETTERS. Thank you.

Sorry for the attitude but those big caps are really annoying to read. And I seem to remember that someone, possibly Janne, already has informed you about the issue. It really looks like shouting. I can imagine how you're sitting in front of your keyboard, shouting and writing with your fists instead of fingers.


Then let's get into the point.

I do really agree with everyone who do think that those seeds should be distributed. Even the rare plants might grow only in the precious brazilian rainforests at the moment, I don't think that Brazil really owns those plants. I think that those plants don't belong to anyone, and the decisions concerning them should be made in the UN or an international commission.

But still I do think that bio-piracy is an issue. The issue would be solved if the locations and similar info would not be published. I said earlier that those seeds should get into distribution, but I didn't ment they would be given to anyone. I believe that it would be good to give the opportunity to grow those plants to reliable people. To reliable growers who wouldn't give any pods or seeds away. After a while the plant could be let to be distributed, but the original info should be kept in secrecy.

This time I have hope MY nightime-english is fine with minimal amount of errors. I don't know why I have this feeling that I must write complicated english or I would look like an idiot. Well, I guess I'm just trying to sound like an expert, what I am certainly not.


Waiting for comments,

Tupakka(finnish for cigarette or tobacco. Don't ask.)

[DENISEVOLEI]

EXCUSES MY ENGLISH MISTAKES... BUT I TRY MY BEST...

Your english isn't the problem.

The problem is that quite annoying habit of yours. We can read uncapitalized text. Please don't use THE CAPITAL LETTERS. Thank you.

Sorry for the attitude but those big caps are really annoying to read. And I seem to remember that someone, possibly Janne, already has informed you about the issue. It really looks like shouting. I can imagine how you're sitting in front of your keyboard, shouting and writing with your fists instead of fingers.

hi..
thank you and sorry about the capital letter.. i will remember it...
i dont have a problem with this and i dont think that who write with this letter is shouting...



Then let's get into the point.

I do really agree with everyone who do think that those seeds should be distributed. Even the rare plants might grow only in the precious brazilian rainforests at the moment, I don't think that Brazil really owns those plants. I think that those plants don't belong to anyone, and the decisions concerning them should be made in the UN or an international commission.

But still I do think that bio-piracy is an issue. The issue would be solved if the locations and similar info would not be published. I said earlier that those seeds should get into distribution, but I didn't ment they would be given to anyone. I believe that it would be good to give the opportunity to grow those plants to reliable people. To reliable growers who wouldn't give any pods or seeds away. After a while the plant could be let to be distributed, but the original info should be kept in secrecy.

This time I have hope MY nightime-english is fine with minimal amount of errors. I don't know why I have this feeling that I must write complicated english or I would look like an idiot. Well, I guess I'm just trying to sound like an expert, what I am certainly not.


Waiting for comments,

Tupakka(finnish for cigarette or tobacco. Don't ask.)

i have a privilege to live and born in my country... brasil... tropical country... where the sun shines all year,,, is winter here now... 31 degrees.. sun all day... i was on the beach.. i have the perfect enviroment  to grow everything that i ( we ) want... everythin that we can plant here grows! we have rare and unusual peppers.. not only peppers some wild species.. our flora is very rich... rich not only abou the flora.. we are rich on gold.. minerals... petrol (oil) and so on ... in a rain florest that you told... you can see gold in the rivers... we dont need too buy petrol or oil... we have it here... in this rain florest - amazonas - near peru and bolivia... we have a lot of wild species know and certainly unknow too.. ohhhh... we have some herbs too... most of them had been studied for the cure of many deseases..- such as cancer and aids..-  its true that we have some restrictions here when we talk about seeds...  but it is our problem... we dont need to put anything that belong to us in a international hand or international comittes... this problems are ours.. so... we can and should solve them...
DENISE

[luca]

I do really agree with everyone who do think that those seeds should be distributed. Even the rare plants might grow only in the precious brazilian rainforests at the moment, I don't think that Brazil really owns those plants. I think that those plants don't belong to anyone, and the decisions concerning them should be made in the UN or an international commission.

I have to disagree with you in this point.  Brazil should have sovereignity over its own territory and resources.  Unfortunately, these are the rules of our current world.  The UN has nothing to do with that kind of issue.  I think there should be no borders and everyone should be allowed to use whatever resources our mother Earth has to provide us, as far as it is for the benefit of the whole mankind (such as drugs to cure diseases) and not for the benefit of a few greedy and selfish people.  But that's another issue.  In any case, what would you think if someone started saying that Finland's berries and mushrooms, woods and lakes etc. should be handled by the UN? That would be ridiculous.  Another important point is that the so-called "developed countries" have already used up (and destroyed) a huge part of their natural resources, polluted our air etc. with the goal of "progress", but when it comes to the "developing countries" doing that is not allowed... Doesn't make sense.  Of course, we (mankind) "know" better now and want to preserve Nature for future generations, but enforcing countries to do that by means of force (which would certainly be the case if the UN or whatever international comitee was involved) is absolutely ridiculous.  If something similar is supposed to be done, the concept of nations and especially of political borders should be rethought and redefined.  It doesn't work in our current world.

[maxpowa]

.. we are rich on gold.. minerals... petrol (oil) and so on ... in a rain florest that you told... you can see gold in the rivers... we dont need too buy petrol or oil... we have it here... in this rain florest - amazonas - near peru and bolivia...
DENISE

I thought I remembered that everybody was driving around on alcohol instead of gasoline. I also remember a lot of Volkswagen beetles

The only sad thing is, that the money is all going to a few lucky people and that half of the population is poor to extremely poor.

Although Brazil is an important industrial power with the strongest economy in the Latin American region, poverty is still widespread in the country. According to some estimates, 50 per cent of the population is poor (or living on slightly less than US$2 per person per day). Brazil is second only to South Africa in the world ranking of income inequality.

Brazil is the economic leader of South America, but there's still a lot of room for improvement on the social affairs side.

That being sad, Brazilian people are among tne most friendly I've ever encountered on any of the journeys and travels, and that includes the poorer population also.

Steve

[Aji Inferno]

Interesting points from everyone... I still wonder if there are any legal ways to solve at least this "how to distribute capsicum seeds to some responsible growers around the world" -issue..?

Any ideas? Or shall we just have to travel to Brazil, wander around with GPSes, try to avoid local authorities and finally get arrested in the airport for having a couple of tiny, unknown berries in our pockets..? Perhaps rather not. Better if someone could just start growing them in Brazil (or somewhere) from very few seeds (not to damage the nature). The way it was done with c.lanceolatum. And when more seeds emerge, more people will have access to them. Wonder who could do something like that. Help from researchers would be important in any case.

One example of the importance of our own "research": who in Brazil, South America, North America or elsewhere knew before Winter 2005/6 that capsicum flexuosum is frost resistant far beyond any other known capsicums? I don't think many - if anyone - did. Researchers in South America hardly put their rare capsicum plants to freeze, or to face totally different light & growing conditions. Well, I didn't mean to, either - but here in Finland such an accident can easily happen, and now we know something very interesting, possibly important, about one poorly known capsicum... It could lead to better pepper varieties for Northern climate areas, for example.

This is information we can't get unless we have access to those plants and thus a chance to test these kinds of things...

[luca]

Tommi, I agree entirely with your comments, as usual ;-)

You really have a point about seeds distribution! The problem is that the fear of evil exploitation by some dominant countries makes the brazilian government over-protect these resources.  It's the bad old habit of security by obscurity.

Most of the brazilian population is not aware of the real issue and the only things they hear is "the evil empires will steal our treasure" (and this is in part because of the social and educational segregation that Steve mentioned).  This attitude just makes things worse.

I think the brazilian researchers are doing a very good work in finding, cataloging and studying the wild capsicum varieties (as you know very well).  And I don't think they're trying to hide anything in that matter as there is a continuous cooperation with bigger germplasm banks (like the USDA's).  You just have to go to GRIN to find out how many of their accessions were actually contributed by Embrapa's BGH.

The main problem in having access to the new species found, is proving to be a "responsible grower" and that real research will be done.

I have visited one of Embrapa's research centers when I was in Brazil last July and talked with some capsicum researchers.  They received me very openly and were proud of their work, showing and explaining everything about the research they do.  Unfortunately, this center is concentrating in creating a germplams with what they call "landraces", which are locally bred varieties.  They only had one accession of C. flexuosum, but it was exsiccated material, not seeds.  They told me there were some discussions among themselves about whether to share the resources with other countries or not (and even whether to add the "famous" GPS coordinates in their databases).

Anyway, I think there is still a long way to go, but with time I think we'll be allowed to help with the preservation and studies of these wild species.

[Aji Inferno]

It was great that you managed to meet those EMBRAPA people, Luca! I think, these kinds of personal relationships and creating trust, sharing information will help our case here... If those researchers, for example, know how seriously (even if with a bit crude methods) we treat our plants and gather information about them, many might be surprised.

[luca]

Yes, it was a nice experience!

I'm keeping in touch with them, hopefully some friendship will "sprout" and they'll start trusting us a bit more.

In the brazilian society, things work pretty much like that: if you know the person (or know someone who knows) you have a much better chance of getting what you want.  Hopefully through this path I can get closer to our "friend" Luciano ;-)

[Sauli Särkkä]

I thought I'd bring this up, if anyone happened to know.

We've been having trouble getting seeds to Denise. I sent the seeds about a month ago and they haven't arrived as of yet. Denise sent me seeds about 3 weeks ago and they came last week, after only 2 weeks of travel.

Denise has sent several seed packets to Finland and they seem to arrive fine, but the seed packets we are sending from here don't seem to get there.

Would anyone happen to know what is going on? Are the seeds getting stuck in customs somewhere?

I don't know about the others, but I sent the seeds in a normal letter, with (if I recall correctly) some flat foam on both sides, so the seeds don't get crushed in processing.



-Sale

[luca]

I've been sending tons of seeds to Brazil and they (almost) always arrive.  Only once it happened that some seeds I sent never got to the destination (this same receiver had a few other cases of lost envelopes)

But in my experience, ~99% of the packages I sent arrived normally.  Sometimes it can take up to one and a half months, so they could still be on the way...

[Sauli Särkkä]

Sometimes it can take up to one and a half months, so they could still be on the way...

Great, I feared that over ten people sent seeds to the boys and girls at the customs office



-Sale

[luca]

I think there's normally no problem at the customs office.  I think it's more likely that the letters simply "get lost", sometimes going to the wrong location, and only showing up months after being sent.

Hopefully the letters arrive there unharmed, sooner or later.

[DENISEVOLEI]

I thought I'd bring this up, if anyone happened to know.

We've been having trouble getting seeds to Denise. I sent the seeds about a month ago and they haven't arrived as of yet. Denise sent me seeds about 3 weeks ago and they came last week, after only 2 weeks of travel.

Denise has sent several seed packets to Finland and they seem to arrive fine, but the seed packets we are sending from here don't seem to get there.

Would anyone happen to know what is going on? Are the seeds getting stuck in customs somewhere?

I don't know about the others, but I sent the seeds in a normal letter, with (if I recall correctly) some flat foam on both sides, so the seeds don't get crushed in processing.



-Sale

hi sarkkas...

I dont receive the seeds yet.. . today i receive 2 packs from USA
with a lots of seeds.. full of it!!  it takes only 2 weeks.. i dont know whats
its happen but i usually receive packs from usa but from europe its very difficult to receive.. i dont know why...
regards
denise

[Sauli Särkkä]

Let's hope everything goes all right and all of the seeds come sooner or later. Did you receive any more letters from Finland besides mine?



-Sale

[Nuthead]

I sent an envelope too for about 4 weeks ago and they haven't arrived yet. I'm thinking about trying again, but....
...it's not fun to send some nice seeds when you don't know if they get there at all. Let's hope they do!  

[Sauli Särkkä]

I know, it sucks. I sent a bunch of varieties, including two that were my last seeds of that variety. It would be nice to find out what makes it all go so damn slow.

How many ppl sent theirs via something else than air mail/par avion? Mine left Finland around July 21st (don't recall exact date), so it's been around a month now. Who else sent Denise seeds?



-Sale

[DENISEVOLEI]

Let's hope everything goes all right and all of the seeds come sooner or later. Did you receive any more letters from Finland besides mine?

hello my friend..

i hope so...
i never receive any letters from finland until now..
denise



-Sale

[DENISEVOLEI]

I sent an envelope too for about 4 weeks ago and they haven't arrived yet. I'm thinking about trying again, but....
...it's not fun to send some nice seeds when you don't know if they get there at all. Let's hope they do!  

hello nuthead..

I didnt receive yours too... I dont know whats happen...
denise