CHANGING SEEDS...

[luca]

Hi everyone,

I'd like to alert you that there have been some complaints from the users of my forum that someone (some users point to denisevolei) has been asking for seeds (trading or receiving them for free) with the objective of selling them for abusive prices.

Besides, the user has been trying to put down the free trade of seeds, by saying that all the seeds "amateurs" send are hybrids, don't belong to a "real" variety or are of bad quality.

This conduct has shocked all the serious chile growers who participate in my forum (http://pimentas.org/forum) and we agreed that some action should be taken.

I don't know for sure who this user is, so I'm trying to investigate this a bit further.  In any case, I'd recommend that everyone stops sending seeds to "unknown" brazilian traders until further notice (ie. until we know for sure who the abusive user is).  Note that I link and talk about the "Inferno" forum at pimentas.org, so most likely all the brazilians showing up here are somehow coming from there.

Another thing that came to my mind and made me wonder was the "misteriously disappeared" envelopes with seeds that have been sent to Brazil.  As I mentioned before, having sent many envelopes to Brazil, it only once occurred that it didn't reach the destination.  Thus, many envelopes disappearing at the same time sound quite suspicious to me.  Maybe someone is claiming that the seeds have not been received, just so that the senders post some more, with the objective of selling them again.

I'd like to stress again that I don't know for sure who the abusive user is , but the fact is that someone is misusing our "trading system".

Please contact me if you have any clues of seed-trading abuse or if you want to comment or discuss this issue.

Thanks a lot and sorry to disturb you with such an uncomfortable topic.

Best regards,
Luca.

[cmpman1974]

Wow, that is very disturbing new.  I certainly disagree as all the varieties I have grown which I received from traders on various forums have been great and most true to form as well.  

Chris

[luca]

Yes, it's really sad that there is always someone trying to cheat and slander people of good will that share without charging a price.  We should do everything at our hands to stop this kind of malign intrusion in our system.

[maxpowa]

I'm glad I didn't send out anything yet.

I already tought it was a bit fishy to say the least. Before sharing with anyone, I have the tendency to check these people out online.

I noticed that this person has been asking for seeds all over the net, which already made me wonder about the intentions.

Good job in figuring this out Luca!

Steve

[H-Bomb]

Hi!

This is the first time in a while when I'm glad I haven't had the time to swap seeds with anyone. Thanks for the heads up Luca, I'll try to keep my eyes open for possible hoaxes. I personally thought that there was something weird about this certain case, but wanted,and still want, more proof before judging anyone. Until then I won't swap with anyone... (I wouldn't have the time anyway  :lol: )

The seed swapping community of ours works very well and it's a shame that some people take advantage of it. That's why I usually trade only with Finnish chileheads or with widely known foreign chileheads. I've unfortunately had a couple of bad experiences with foreign trades, so I'm always on my guard.

-Harry

[willard3]

I thought originally that Denise wanted seeds Waaaaayyyyyyyy too badly and was trolling everywhere.....in caps, yet.....

Unless you farm 1000 acres of chiles, what are you going to do with that many seeds?

I'm a hobby grower and I use maybe 50  seeds a year.....

[maxpowa]

Exactly, that what I figured also.

If he/she wants a lot of seeds that bad, well, let them buy em. Saw 200 caribbean red seeds for 4 pound sterling the other day, that's a good price.

But then again, it appears that the seeds are being sold on, which makes the whole case a lot worse in my eyes, it's nothing short of plain fraud. There's a word for creatures that live this way,... parasites!

Steve

[Aji Inferno]

One thought...

I don't think we're here to judge each other - especially when the person in question hasn't yet told her own opinion about all this. We're still guessing - and if we are wrong, that would hurt someone very bad. Then again, if what has been proposed turns out to be the truth, that would mean behaviour not proper for community like this, built on mutual trust.

So, if there's another explanation - let's hear it and be fair, I'd suggest. If we hear no other explanation, I guess that's a sign as well...

[luca]

Yes, I agree.  We don't have any proof.  But we have some very convincing clues, such as behavior and IP addresses with very close matches and so on.

We have asked for explanation regarding this behavior, but we got no answer.  The person who is trying to sell seeds doesn't disclose his/her identity and the person with suspicious behavior has "disappeared" and is not answering us with regard to this issue.

It's definitely not my goal to judge someone without getting real clues and before hearing the defense.  But a very similar case has happened before and someone who got seeds from people in my forum has openly tried to sell them on Mercado Livre (brazilian EBay subsidiary).  Now someone else seems to be trying to sell seeds (which seem to have been) received from us and slander our system of seeds trade.  My main point was to warn people that they should be careful and hopefully help us with our investigation.  All the clues we have point in one direction (with no exception), but we haven't got the final proof yet.

I'll use this opportunity to ask Denise, once again, to come forward with her defense.  Failure to do that can only increase our suspicions.

Sorry if I caused too much of a storm in the community by bringing this subject forward.  I just think that discussing this issue openly is our best defense against such malicious people.

[H-Bomb]

I'm glad you gave us a heads up, Luca! So thanks once again.

As Luca said, let's wait for a defensive speech. If there's none, then we have some proof.

Let's put it this way: If I read such suspicions about me, I would raise one hell of a  noise and defend myself. That's what every honest person would do, right?

-Harry

[Aji Inferno]

So let's wait and be more careful in the future... Too bad there's wrong kind of opportunism in everything we human beings do. That's why "spam" exists, too...

[Sauli Särkkä]

Oh well, I got my seeds from Denise (let's hope they are what they are supposed to be) and I know I sent mine properly. If they get lost, I can't be held responsible for failures of the postal service.

Keen on getting a response from Denise with some sort of defense. If she (that is, if it's really a woman behind this) doesn't say anything as a defense, I know my seeds, along with the seeds of many others, will be sold.



-Sale

[luca]

Sale, which varieties have you received from Denise?

[Sauli Särkkä]

I got some

- Malagueta
- Dedo Moca Amarela
- Dedo Moca Vermelha
- Cambuci (handwriting unclear, could be something else)

The seeds are in small, clear plastic bags that are made of a harder plastic than "normal" baggies. The plastic seems to be cellophane. The seeds arrived in a blue envelope and was sent (according to the postmark) August 4th.



-Sale

[luca]

Okay, these are actually the most readily available varieties in supermarkets and other groceries...

[Tupakka]

Okay, these are actually the most readily available varieties in supermarkets and other groceries...

So you mean that Sauli has probably gotten seeds from pods bought from grocerie stores?
Damn! Well.. if they do grow, maybe it's not so horrible. Afterall the differences of self and industrially grown plants are not that big. I think.

First I thought that those seeds could have been self-grown, but taken from immature or sterile pods. But actually I can't see the benefit of sending sterile seeds.. wouldn't it have been more sensible to send "working" seeds and take the mature pod to yourself. Ofcourse.. she could just eat the immature pod and send the sterile seeds just to be mean.

Hope that this DENISEVOLEI isn't really selling these seeds.. just loves to grow hundreds of plants. Maybe she is growing to sell the pods.. would that be so terrible?? Well.. ofcourse she should even mention it so we all could make our minds about should we send any seeds.

This is certainly a very distrurbing situation, and we all hope to get some defenses or answers from her. But personally I think that our hopes do nothing.. I doubt that we will ever hear from her again.. not even mentioning her to apologise if our suspicions turn to be true.

[svalli]

Okay, these are actually the most readily available varieties in supermarkets and other groceries...

On some forums she was offering rare Brazilian seeds for trade. Maybe those seeds are rare in supermarkets of other countries, but I would not still call them rare Brazilians.

In a PM she offered me:
... MALAGUETA
,,, MALAGUETINHA
... DEDO DE MOCA
... PIMENTA-PIMENTAO
... CAMBUCI
... JALAPENO
... CUMARI PASSARINHO
... CAYENNE
... BODE AMARELA
... PERA

Luckily I did not trade with her yet, because I was waiting for my pods to ripen for seed collection.

[JohnF]

I found it all very curious but would have just sent her some seeds anyway so nothing to lose. I chalked some of it up to language differences. I have seen other chile heads get addicted and scramble all over the web to add varieties to their collections. She sent me the following in two shipments following a misunderstanding:

Malaguetinha       
Malagueta          
Vulcao         
Dedo De Moca,red          
Cambuci          
Pimenta Mesa         
Espanhola         
Fidalgo         
Cumari Passarinho         
Branca         
Biquinho         
Pera         
Bode,Yellow         
Cheiro Vermelha         
7 Molhos   


She also received the seeds I sent her. And I sent her some extras after receiving her second shipment. But have not heard from her since.

A few years back I had the experience you suspect. I am a member of Seed Savers Exchange--I had a man order several varieties from me and then found he was starting a seed business. Looking at his listing I found several of the varieties he had ordered from me selling for 5 seeds for $3. Seed Savers Exchange was forced to add a rule saying you could not resell seeds ordered from other members prior to growing them out yourself.

[cmpman1974]

John F quoted, "I have seen other chile heads get addicted and scramble all over the web to add varieties to their collections."  

Is there a name for that condition.lol.  I may be familiar with it.   However, I never sell any seeds and have no intention of profiting.   Also, one can definitely see I grow many, many varieties so they're put to good use.  

Growing stuff can be like a jigsaw puzzle when you really get into the hobby.  Gotta find all the pieces. lol.  

I'm glad to hear the trade was fulfilled.  I have had 5+ experiences where I didn't even that have happen.  But so many more where it was well worth it.  A risk worth taking IMO.  

Chris

[JohnF]

Chris

It's called addiction and I am also a victim of it. Just have to have the ones you don't have.
I have been at it for several years in different ways and have made very many trades all over the world with only a handful of bad experiences- as you say worth the trouble. I have also made friends all over the world because of this hobby.