... HELLO... I`M NEW IN THIS GROUP AND I WANT TO SAY HELLO FOR EVERYBODY...

MY NAME IS DENISE I`M FROM BRAZIL - RIO DE JANEIRO - AND I`M INTERESTING TO CHANGE SEEDS...
I HAVE BRAZILLIAN PEPPER SEEDS TO CHANGE..
THANK YOU...
REGARDS
DENISE

Welcome to the group Denise!

I live in USA, Wisconsin and would be really interested to get some new Brazilian Chiles to my collection. You can find what I am growing this year on my plantlist (http://home.wi.rr.com/vallinmaki/plantlist2006.txt).

THANK YOU !!!


LETS.. CHANGE SEEDS... RSSS...
I WILL SEE YOUR PLANTLIST AND THEN WE CHANGE...
THANKS FOR YOUR ATTENTION
CHEERS
DENISE

... CONGRATULATION!!

YOU HAVE A BEAUTIFUL PLANTLIST!!
I`LL SEND YOU A PM...
REGARDS
AND THANK YOU
DENISE

Denise, could you list your available seeds here? I'm also interested, if you have any interesting specialties.. ;)


-Sale

Boa vinda ao Inferno, Denise!

Could you please not use CAPITALS so much, it looks like you are SHOUTING  :)

I'm interrested too so if it's possible to see or get your seedlitst somewhere/somehow...

Kaitsu

:oops:  excuses janne.... its not my intention...
thanks for your regards
denise

... hello sarkka....

i will send you a mp telling what i have to change...
regards
denise

hello...

i will send you a mp too... telling that..
thank you
denise

:lol:  thanks for all regards...

... my peppers and seeds stays on my beach house... every weekends i will go there...
now.. i have a little vacations and i will go to there and i only come back on august.. but please dont stop to send me messages.. i will answer all when i come back or when it will be possible,,
excuse my english but i try my best..
thanks for all..
denise

Welcome to Inferno, Denise! :)

Glad to see people from all over the world here, interested in same things - these wonderful little devils called chili! ;)

Yes, I think we all are *very* interested in Brazilean peppers - you, after all, have most of the rarest wild chili peppers growing in Brazil. Also, Brazilean researchers seem to have the best chili knowledge in the world now. Brazilean peppers seem to be quite distinctive, different from other varieties, even from neighbouring South American countries.

By the way, we have Luca as a member here - your fellow-Brazilean who now studies in Finland... He has already introduced us to some wonderful Brazilean plants! Can't wait to find more... :-)

Cheers,
Tommi

Someone mentioned my name? ;-)

Hi Denise, nice to see you here too.  Inferno is a great place to be! :lol:
I think Denise already "knows" me from my forum in Portuguese.  

BTW, I actually work here in Finland... I'm glad I already finished my studies (actually, I finished my studies almost 10 years ago! :P)

This may seem like an odd question, but I am just wondering why it is so difficult to get seeds for Brazillian wild capsicum varieties.  I am not sure how prevalent these are in native areas.  I assume they must be very obscure, even for natives.  

How are they identified by scientists, but seeds are not saved?  Still have lots to learn about these obviously.  

Chris
:D

The main problem is that there has been some cases in which people from Japan and the US have registered (patented) some brazilian plant/fruit varieties as been from their native country (and not from Brazil).  This is called bio-piracy and the government has taken some actions to try to stop it from happenenig.  So, in fact, it is illegal to "export" seeds/plants/fruits of wild species.  For this reason, it is not easy to get seeds via the "official" path.

Embrapa (Brazilian Agricultural Research Corporation) collects, identifies, studies and preserves the germplasm of these wild species.  But there are so many different plants spread out around the country (and certainly some species which remain unknown) that, in my opinion, it is impossible for them to do the job alone.  Embrapa doesn't provide seeds for private use, only for research done inside Brazil.  And they don't encourage (or inform) the general public to collect and help them in the task of cataloging and studying brazilian wild flora (capsicum or else).  (Note: this is not the official policy, just what I found out when trying to contact them)

These wild species seem to be rather common throughout Brazil, but brazilian people is not aware of them, therefore they remain mostly unknown or unnoticed :(

I have been wondering the same, along with questions like: "Why don't they correct their mistakes in the database (USDA), even the obvious ones?" and "Why is it so hard for a home grower to obtain rare seeds, there are hundreds of seed banks but they refuse to give away or sell seeds to individuals. Cannot see the reason, if they have plenty of seeds rotting in their storages?" The latter question can be applied to all kinds of seeds, not only Capsicum. It's so really nice to surf the net and see so many interesting plants, knowing that it's practically impossible to find seeds of anything more exotic than parsley.

Lainaus käyttäjältä: "luca"The main problem is that there has been some cases in which people from Japan and the US have registered (patented) some brazilian plant/fruit varieties as been from their native country (and not from Brazil).  This is called bio-piracy and the government has taken some actions to try to stop it from happenenig.  So, in fact, it is illegal to "export" seeds/plants/fruits of wild species.  For this reason, it is not easy to get seeds via the "official" path.

Embrapa (Brazilian Agricultural Research Corporation) collects, identifies, studies and preserves the germplasm of these wild species.  But there are so many different plants spread out around the country (and certainly some species which remain unknown) that, in my opinion, it is impossible for them to do the job alone.  Embrapa doesn't provide seeds for private use, only for research done inside Brazil.  And they don't encourage (or inform) the general public to collect and help them in the task of cataloging and studying brazilian wild flora (capsicum or else).  (Note: this is not the official policy, just what I found out when trying to contact them)

These wild species seem to be rather common throughout Brazil, but brazilian people is not aware of them, therefore they remain mostly unknown or unnoticed :(

The problem with bio-piracy is kind of understandable, but I wonder whether the solution (= no export, no research co-operation) has been the best one in the long run... Still, some other countries seem to have similar kinds of restrictions.

It's also easier to understand the logic behind the restrictions when one considers, for example, birds' eggs... Collectors used to travel from all over the world here, to Finland, to simply steal eggs of rare birds for their or other people's collections. It went pretty bad, even endangering some very rare bird species. So, now this kind of "export" or even local hobby collecting is strictly illegal and will lead to quite severe fines.

Or what about exporting of certain parrots and other animals? Many parrots became almost extinct in the wilderness when everybody wanted one as a house pet... The problem isn't with just some of us collecting a berry or two from some bush in the jungle. The problem is the masses of us. 10 hobbyist people asking for capsicum seeds from USDA isn't a problem. 1000 or 10000 people already are... They can't handle things like those. That's not what they were made for. Likewise, I doubt that Brazilean researchers would love to see masses of eco-tourists roaming around the country, taking (for example) all certain plants with them as souvenirs. Or worse: for business.

This is why I think we need to find a better way. What is happening with ultra-rare c.lanceolatum might be an example. Its seeds can be purchased for those who absolutely want to grow it. This makes it available for us, even if not that easily, but also keeps the demand/supply in some kind of control. Eventually, lanceolatum will (hopefully) spread from extreme hobbyists to the hands of larger masses, when the plant becomes more common. If things go well, two goals met: 1) another interesting wild capsicum available for all of us to grow and 2) an almost extinct plant kind of saved by spreading it all over the world. Perhaps we shall see something similar to happen with other capsicums etc.

Until then we're dependent on individuals, either researchers or hobbyists who can and dare to share seeds they have somehow acquired. They will spread that way, too. The problem there is quality control. In wild capsicums, for example, not everything is at all what it seems. Almost every chile website still lists e.g. capsicum exile as an independent wild capsicum, although we're talking about a c.chacoense somebody just misnamed... There are lots of similar cases around; one type of "c.eximium" proved to be a c.frutescens. At least one c.chacoense has turned out to be a c.annuum... And so on, ad inf. ;)

Anyway, I also believe that some (not all) wild Brazilean capsicums are fairly common locally - and finding a couple of ripe berries + collecting the seeds shouldn't be that difficult. In EMBRAPA and USDA there are exact GPS satellite positioning coordinates to lead people directly to the very same plants the researchers have studied... Think about it. I'd be highly surprised if some, even many nature hobbyists in Brazil haven't already done that... The problem is just that we don't know them - and they don't know us... Yet. :)

Very interesting.  Makes more sense now.  Thanks for the detailed explanation.  It sould like we need more Brazillian members.  :lol:

Of course, I could probably live right next door to a rare chile plant and not know it since some look drastically different than the domestiamted varieties.

Chris

Yes, I agree entirely with Tommi.  I also think that this kind of restrictions or "keep it secret, keep it safe" is not the way to go.  The risk of doing this is that the collected samples might expire or get otherwise lost if not distributed for reproduction.  Also, by restricting the number of people collecting and, especially, aware of these wild species, the number of specimens collected will be very small.  There are often some projects where 5 or 6 brazilian researchers get money to travel around collecting capsicum (or other plants) for some days.  I think this is a really good practice, but very far from being efficient.  Maybe it would be much more efficient to use the same money to educate people on the importance of such wild species and stimulate "common people" (meaning non-researchers) to contribute with the germplasm banks.

I visited Embrapa and talked with some researchers this month, when I was in Brazil.  They said that the publication of GPS location of wild species is being discussed heavily, with some people not wanting them to be published (fearing bio-piracy), while others want them published for documentation purposes.

If you check these databases, it is easy to notice that the plants are quite common and they are in very accessible places, in many cases.  Things like "on the edge of the road XX, 1km before the bridge over river YY" and so on.  So one just needs time and will to go around looking for wild capsicums.  Unfortunately when I go to Brazil, I don't have much time for that, because I have to visit family/friends etc.  Then I also have someone with me who is not that interested in spending a few days walking around and looking for some plants, instead of lying on the beach and taking some sun :lol:

Lainaus käyttäjältä: "thietavu"Welcome to Inferno, Denise! :)

Glad to see people from all over the world here, interested in same things - these wonderful little devils called chili! ;)

Yes, I think we all are *very* interested in Brazilean peppers - you, after all, have most of the rarest wild chili peppers growing in Brazil. Also, Brazilean researchers seem to have the best chili knowledge in the world now. Brazilean peppers seem to be quite distinctive, different from other varieties, even from neighbouring South American countries.

By the way, we have Luca as a member here - your fellow-Brazilean who now studies in Finland... He has already introduced us to some wonderful Brazilean plants! Can't wait to find more... :-)


Cheers,
Tommi

HELLO TOMMI... HOW ARE YOU?
THANKS FOR ALL...
OHHH YES... I THINK THAT WE HAVE A GREAT ENVIRONMENT TO GROW PEPPERS... AND WE HAVE SOME THAT ARE RARE... UNIQUE AND UNSUAL.. BUT ITS DIFFICULT TO FIND SOME OF THEM HERE TOO...
I HAVE SOME SEEDS TO CHANGE IF YOU WANT TELL ME...
AND THANK YOU AGAIN...
BEST REGARDS
DENISE...

EXCUSES MY ENGLISH MISTAKES... BUT I TRY MY BEST...

Lainaus käyttäjältä: "luca"Someone mentioned my name? ;-)

Hi Denise, nice to see you here too.  Inferno is a great place to be! :lol:
I think Denise already "knows" me from my forum in Portuguese.  

BTW, I actually work here in Finland... I'm glad I already finished my studies (actually, I finished my studies almost 10 years ago! :P)

HELLO LUCA....

THANK YOU FOR YOUR REGARDS... NICE TO SEE YOU TOO...
.. YES... I KNOW YOU FROM YOUR PORTUGUESE FORUM... I`M A MEMBER THERE TOO...
ONE MORE TIME THANK YOU...
CHEERS
DENISE

Lainaus käyttäjältä: "luca"The main problem is that there has been some cases in which people from Japan and the US have registered (patented) some brazilian plant/fruit varieties as been from their native country (and not from Brazil).  This is called bio-piracy and the government has taken some actions to try to stop it from happenenig.  So, in fact, it is illegal to "export" seeds/plants/fruits of wild species.  For this reason, it is not easy to get seeds via the "official" path.

Embrapa (Brazilian Agricultural Research Corporation) collects, identifies, studies and preserves the germplasm of these wild species.  But there are so many different plants spread out around the country (and certainly some species which remain unknown) that, in my opinion, it is impossible for them to do the job alone.  Embrapa doesn't provide seeds for private use, only for research done inside Brazil.  And they don't encourage (or inform) the general public to collect and help them in the task of cataloging and studying brazilian wild flora (capsicum or else).  (Note: this is not the official policy, just what I found out when trying to contact them)

These wild species seem to be rather common throughout Brazil, but brazilian people is not aware of them, therefore they remain mostly unknown or unnoticed :(

.... I AGREE WITH YOU LUCA... THAT ARE A LOT A LOT OF RULES ABOUT SEEDS ... I SEND A E-MAIL TO OUR AGRICULTURAL MINISTERY AND THEM THEY SEND TO ME SOME ANSWERS.. TELLIN ME ALL THE RESTRICTIONS THAT WE HAVE.. I WILL SEND IT TO YOU... AND IF YOU WANT YOU CAN TRANSLATE AND POST HERE...
REGARDS
DENISE

Lainaus käyttäjältä: "DENISEVOLEI"EXCUSES MY ENGLISH MISTAKES... BUT I TRY MY BEST...

Your english isn't the problem.

The problem is that quite annoying habit of yours. We can read uncapitalized text. Please don't use THE CAPITAL LETTERS. Thank you.

Sorry for the attitude but those big caps are really annoying to read. And I seem to remember that someone, possibly Janne, already has informed you about the issue. It really looks like shouting. I can imagine how you're sitting in front of your keyboard, shouting and writing with your fists instead of fingers.


Then let's get into the point.

I do really agree with everyone who do think that those seeds should be distributed. Even the rare plants might grow only in the precious brazilian rainforests at the moment, I don't think that Brazil really owns those plants. I think that those plants don't belong to anyone, and the decisions concerning them should be made in the UN or an international commission.

But still I do think that bio-piracy is an issue. The issue would be solved if the locations and similar info would not be published. I said earlier that those seeds should get into distribution, but I didn't ment they would be given to anyone. I believe that it would be good to give the opportunity to grow those plants to reliable people. To reliable growers who wouldn't give any pods or seeds away. After a while the plant could be let to be distributed, but the original info should be kept in secrecy.

This time I have hope MY nightime-english is fine with minimal amount of errors. I don't know why I have this feeling that I must write complicated english or I would look like an idiot. Well, I guess I'm just trying to sound like an expert, what I am certainly not.


Waiting for comments,

Tupakka(finnish for cigarette or tobacco. Don't ask.)

Lainaus käyttäjältä: "tupakka"

Lainaus käyttäjältä: "DENISEVOLEI"EXCUSES MY ENGLISH MISTAKES... BUT I TRY MY BEST...

Your english isn't the problem.

The problem is that quite annoying habit of yours. We can read uncapitalized text. Please don't use THE CAPITAL LETTERS. Thank you.

Sorry for the attitude but those big caps are really annoying to read. And I seem to remember that someone, possibly Janne, already has informed you about the issue. It really looks like shouting. I can imagine how you're sitting in front of your keyboard, shouting and writing with your fists instead of fingers.

hi..
thank you and sorry about the capital letter.. i will remember it...
i dont have a problem with this and i dont think that who write with this letter is shouting...



Then let's get into the point.

I do really agree with everyone who do think that those seeds should be distributed. Even the rare plants might grow only in the precious brazilian rainforests at the moment, I don't think that Brazil really owns those plants. I think that those plants don't belong to anyone, and the decisions concerning them should be made in the UN or an international commission.

But still I do think that bio-piracy is an issue. The issue would be solved if the locations and similar info would not be published. I said earlier that those seeds should get into distribution, but I didn't ment they would be given to anyone. I believe that it would be good to give the opportunity to grow those plants to reliable people. To reliable growers who wouldn't give any pods or seeds away. After a while the plant could be let to be distributed, but the original info should be kept in secrecy.

This time I have hope MY nightime-english is fine with minimal amount of errors. I don't know why I have this feeling that I must write complicated english or I would look like an idiot. Well, I guess I'm just trying to sound like an expert, what I am certainly not.


Waiting for comments,

Tupakka(finnish for cigarette or tobacco. Don't ask.)

i have a privilege to live and born in my country... brasil... tropical country... where the sun shines all year,,, is winter here now... 31 degrees.. sun all day... i was on the beach.. i have the perfect enviroment  to grow everything that i ( we ) want... everythin that we can plant here grows! we have rare and unusual peppers.. not only peppers some wild species.. our flora is very rich... rich not only abou the flora.. we are rich on gold.. minerals... petrol (oil) and so on ... in a rain florest that you told... you can see gold in the rivers... we dont need too buy petrol or oil... we have it here... in this rain florest - amazonas - near peru and bolivia... we have a lot of wild species know and certainly unknow too.. ohhhh... we have some herbs too... most of them had been studied for the cure of many deseases..- such as cancer and aids..-  its true that we have some restrictions here when we talk about seeds...  but it is our problem... we dont need to put anything that belong to us in a international hand or international comittes... this problems are ours.. so... we can and should solve them...
DENISE

Lainaus käyttäjältä: "tupakka"I do really agree with everyone who do think that those seeds should be distributed. Even the rare plants might grow only in the precious brazilian rainforests at the moment, I don't think that Brazil really owns those plants. I think that those plants don't belong to anyone, and the decisions concerning them should be made in the UN or an international commission.

I have to disagree with you in this point.  Brazil should have sovereignity over its own territory and resources.  Unfortunately, these are the rules of our current world.  The UN has nothing to do with that kind of issue.  I think there should be no borders and everyone should be allowed to use whatever resources our mother Earth has to provide us, as far as it is for the benefit of the whole mankind (such as drugs to cure diseases) and not for the benefit of a few greedy and selfish people.  But that's another issue.  In any case, what would you think if someone started saying that Finland's berries and mushrooms, woods and lakes etc. should be handled by the UN? That would be ridiculous.  Another important point is that the so-called "developed countries" have already used up (and destroyed) a huge part of their natural resources, polluted our air etc. with the goal of "progress", but when it comes to the "developing countries" doing that is not allowed... Doesn't make sense.  Of course, we (mankind) "know" better now and want to preserve Nature for future generations, but enforcing countries to do that by means of force (which would certainly be the case if the UN or whatever international comitee was involved) is absolutely ridiculous.  If something similar is supposed to be done, the concept of nations and especially of political borders should be rethought and redefined.  It doesn't work in our current world.

Lainaus käyttäjältä: "DENISEVOLEI".. we are rich on gold.. minerals... petrol (oil) and so on ... in a rain florest that you told... you can see gold in the rivers... we dont need too buy petrol or oil... we have it here... in this rain florest - amazonas - near peru and bolivia...
DENISE

I thought I remembered that everybody was driving around on alcohol instead of gasoline. I also remember a lot of Volkswagen beetles ;)

The only sad thing is, that the money is all going to a few lucky people and that half of the population is poor to extremely poor.

Lainaus
Although Brazil is an important industrial power with the strongest economy in the Latin American region, poverty is still widespread in the country. According to some estimates, 50 per cent of the population is poor (or living on slightly less than US$2 per person per day). Brazil is second only to South Africa in the world ranking of income inequality.

Brazil is the economic leader of South America, but there's still a lot of room for improvement on the social affairs side.

That being sad, Brazilian people are among tne most friendly I've ever encountered on any of the journeys and travels, and that includes the poorer population also.

Steve

Interesting points from everyone... I still wonder if there are any legal ways to solve at least this "how to distribute capsicum seeds to some responsible growers around the world" -issue..?

Any ideas? Or shall we just have to travel to Brazil, wander around with GPSes, try to avoid local authorities and finally get arrested in the airport for having a couple of tiny, unknown berries in our pockets..? Perhaps rather not. ;) Better if someone could just start growing them in Brazil (or somewhere) from very few seeds (not to damage the nature). The way it was done with c.lanceolatum. And when more seeds emerge, more people will have access to them. Wonder who could do something like that. Help from researchers would be important in any case.

One example of the importance of our own "research": who in Brazil, South America, North America or elsewhere knew before Winter 2005/6 that capsicum flexuosum is frost resistant far beyond any other known capsicums? I don't think many - if anyone - did. Researchers in South America hardly put their rare capsicum plants to freeze, or to face totally different light & growing conditions. Well, I didn't mean to, either - but here in Finland such an accident can easily happen, and now we know something very interesting, possibly important, about one poorly known capsicum... It could lead to better pepper varieties for Northern climate areas, for example.

This is information we can't get unless we have access to those plants and thus a chance to test these kinds of things...

Tommi, I agree entirely with your comments, as usual ;-)

You really have a point about seeds distribution! The problem is that the fear of evil exploitation by some dominant countries makes the brazilian government over-protect these resources.  It's the bad old habit of security by obscurity.

Most of the brazilian population is not aware of the real issue and the only things they hear is "the evil empires will steal our treasure" (and this is in part because of the social and educational segregation that Steve mentioned).  This attitude just makes things worse.

I think the brazilian researchers are doing a very good work in finding, cataloging and studying the wild capsicum varieties (as you know very well).  And I don't think they're trying to hide anything in that matter as there is a continuous cooperation with bigger germplasm banks (like the USDA's).  You just have to go to GRIN to find out how many of their accessions were actually contributed by Embrapa's BGH.

The main problem in having access to the new species found, is proving to be a "responsible grower" and that real research will be done.

I have visited one of Embrapa's research centers when I was in Brazil last July and talked with some capsicum researchers.  They received me very openly and were proud of their work, showing and explaining everything about the research they do.  Unfortunately, this center is concentrating in creating a germplams with what they call "landraces", which are locally bred varieties.  They only had one accession of C. flexuosum, but it was exsiccated material, not seeds.  They told me there were some discussions among themselves about whether to share the resources with other countries or not (and even whether to add the "famous" GPS coordinates in their databases).

Anyway, I think there is still a long way to go, but with time I think we'll be allowed to help with the preservation and studies of these wild species.

It was great that you managed to meet those EMBRAPA people, Luca! I think, these kinds of personal relationships and creating trust, sharing information will help our case here... If those researchers, for example, know how seriously (even if with a bit crude methods) we treat our plants and gather information about them, many might be surprised. :)

Yes, it was a nice experience!

I'm keeping in touch with them, hopefully some friendship will "sprout" and they'll start trusting us a bit more.

In the brazilian society, things work pretty much like that: if you know the person (or know someone who knows) you have a much better chance of getting what you want.  Hopefully through this path I can get closer to our "friend" Luciano ;-)

I thought I'd bring this up, if anyone happened to know.

We've been having trouble getting seeds to Denise. I sent the seeds about a month ago and they haven't arrived as of yet. Denise sent me seeds about 3 weeks ago and they came last week, after only 2 weeks of travel.

Denise has sent several seed packets to Finland and they seem to arrive fine, but the seed packets we are sending from here don't seem to get there.

Would anyone happen to know what is going on? Are the seeds getting stuck in customs somewhere?

I don't know about the others, but I sent the seeds in a normal letter, with (if I recall correctly) some flat foam on both sides, so the seeds don't get crushed in processing.



-Sale

I've been sending tons of seeds to Brazil and they (almost) always arrive.  Only once it happened that some seeds I sent never got to the destination (this same receiver had a few other cases of lost envelopes)

But in my experience, ~99% of the packages I sent arrived normally.  Sometimes it can take up to one and a half months, so they could still be on the way...

Lainaus käyttäjältä: "luca"Sometimes it can take up to one and a half months, so they could still be on the way...

Great, I feared that over ten people sent seeds to the boys and girls at the customs office ;)



-Sale

:)

I think there's normally no problem at the customs office.  I think it's more likely that the letters simply "get lost", sometimes going to the wrong location, and only showing up months after being sent.

Hopefully the letters arrive there unharmed, sooner or later.

Lainaus käyttäjältä: "SarkkaS"I thought I'd bring this up, if anyone happened to know.

We've been having trouble getting seeds to Denise. I sent the seeds about a month ago and they haven't arrived as of yet. Denise sent me seeds about 3 weeks ago and they came last week, after only 2 weeks of travel.

Denise has sent several seed packets to Finland and they seem to arrive fine, but the seed packets we are sending from here don't seem to get there.

Would anyone happen to know what is going on? Are the seeds getting stuck in customs somewhere?

I don't know about the others, but I sent the seeds in a normal letter, with (if I recall correctly) some flat foam on both sides, so the seeds don't get crushed in processing.



-Sale

hi sarkkas...

I dont receive the seeds yet.. . today i receive 2 packs from USA
with a lots of seeds.. full of it!!  it takes only 2 weeks.. i dont know whats
its happen but i usually receive packs from usa but from europe its very difficult to receive.. i dont know why...
regards
denise

Let's hope everything goes all right and all of the seeds come sooner or later. Did you receive any more letters from Finland besides mine?



-Sale

I sent an envelope too for about 4 weeks ago and they haven't arrived yet. I'm thinking about trying again, but....
...it's not fun to send some nice seeds when you don't know if they get there at all. Let's hope they do!  :(

I know, it sucks. I sent a bunch of varieties, including two that were my last seeds of that variety. It would be nice to find out what makes it all go so damn slow.

How many ppl sent theirs via something else than air mail/par avion? Mine left Finland around July 21st (don't recall exact date), so it's been around a month now. Who else sent Denise seeds?



-Sale

Lainaus käyttäjältä: "SarkkaS"Let's hope everything goes all right and all of the seeds come sooner or later. Did you receive any more letters from Finland besides mine?

hello my friend..

i hope so...
i never receive any letters from finland until now..
denise



-Sale

Lainaus käyttäjältä: "Nuthead"I sent an envelope too for about 4 weeks ago and they haven't arrived yet. I'm thinking about trying again, but....
...it's not fun to send some nice seeds when you don't know if they get there at all. Let's hope they do!  :(

hello nuthead..

I didnt receive yours too... I dont know whats happen...
denise

Hi everyone,

I'd like to alert you that there have been some complaints from the users of my forum that someone (some users point to denisevolei) has been asking for seeds (trading or receiving them for free) with the objective of selling them for abusive prices.

Besides, the user has been trying to put down the free trade of seeds, by saying that all the seeds "amateurs" send are hybrids, don't belong to a "real" variety or are of bad quality.

This conduct has shocked all the serious chile growers who participate in my forum (http://pimentas.org/forum) and we agreed that some action should be taken.

I don't know for sure who this user is, so I'm trying to investigate this a bit further.  In any case, I'd recommend that everyone stops sending seeds to "unknown" brazilian traders until further notice (ie. until we know for sure who the abusive user is).  Note that I link and talk about the "Inferno" forum at pimentas.org, so most likely all the brazilians showing up here are somehow coming from there.

Another thing that came to my mind and made me wonder was the "misteriously disappeared" envelopes with seeds that have been sent to Brazil.  As I mentioned before, having sent many envelopes to Brazil, it only once occurred that it didn't reach the destination.  Thus, many envelopes disappearing at the same time sound quite suspicious to me.  Maybe someone is claiming that the seeds have not been received, just so that the senders post some more, with the objective of selling them again.

I'd like to stress again that I don't know for sure who the abusive user is , but the fact is that someone is misusing our "trading system".

Please contact me if you have any clues of seed-trading abuse or if you want to comment or discuss this issue.

Thanks a lot and sorry to disturb you with such an uncomfortable topic.

Best regards,
Luca.

Wow, that is very disturbing new.  I certainly disagree as all the varieties I have grown which I received from traders on various forums have been great and most true to form as well.  

Chris

Yes, it's really sad that there is always someone trying to cheat and slander people of good will that share without charging a price.  We should do everything at our hands to stop this kind of malign intrusion in our system.

I'm glad I didn't send out anything yet.

I already tought it was a bit fishy to say the least. Before sharing with anyone, I have the tendency to check these people out online.

I noticed that this person has been asking for seeds all over the net, which already made me wonder about the intentions.

Good job in figuring this out Luca!

Steve

Hi!

This is the first time in a while when I'm glad I haven't had the time to swap seeds with anyone. Thanks for the heads up Luca, I'll try to keep my eyes open for possible hoaxes. I personally thought that there was something weird about this certain case, but wanted,and still want, more proof before judging anyone. Until then I won't swap with anyone... (I wouldn't have the time anyway  :lol: )

The seed swapping community of ours works very well and it's a shame that some people take advantage of it. That's why I usually trade only with Finnish chileheads or with widely known foreign chileheads. I've unfortunately had a couple of bad experiences with foreign trades, so I'm always on my guard.

-Harry

I thought originally that Denise wanted seeds Waaaaayyyyyyyy too badly and was trolling everywhere.....in caps, yet.....

Unless you farm 1000 acres of chiles, what are you going to do with that many seeds?

I'm a hobby grower and I use maybe 50  seeds a year.....

Exactly, that what I figured also.

If he/she wants a lot of seeds that bad, well, let them buy em. Saw 200 caribbean red seeds for 4 pound sterling the other day, that's a good price.

But then again, it appears that the seeds are being sold on, which makes the whole case a lot worse in my eyes, it's nothing short of plain fraud. There's a word for creatures that live this way,... parasites!

Steve

One thought...

I don't think we're here to judge each other - especially when the person in question hasn't yet told her own opinion about all this. We're still guessing - and if we are wrong, that would hurt someone very bad. Then again, if what has been proposed turns out to be the truth, that would mean behaviour not proper for community like this, built on mutual trust.

So, if there's another explanation - let's hear it and be fair, I'd suggest. If we hear no other explanation, I guess that's a sign as well...

Yes, I agree.  We don't have any proof.  But we have some very convincing clues, such as behavior and IP addresses with very close matches and so on.

We have asked for explanation regarding this behavior, but we got no answer.  The person who is trying to sell seeds doesn't disclose his/her identity and the person with suspicious behavior has "disappeared" and is not answering us with regard to this issue.

It's definitely not my goal to judge someone without getting real clues and before hearing the defense.  But a very similar case has happened before and someone who got seeds from people in my forum has openly tried to sell them on Mercado Livre (brazilian EBay subsidiary).  Now someone else seems to be trying to sell seeds (which seem to have been) received from us and slander our system of seeds trade.  My main point was to warn people that they should be careful and hopefully help us with our investigation.  All the clues we have point in one direction (with no exception), but we haven't got the final proof yet.

I'll use this opportunity to ask Denise, once again, to come forward with her defense.  Failure to do that can only increase our suspicions.

Sorry if I caused too much of a storm in the community by bringing this subject forward.  I just think that discussing this issue openly is our best defense against such malicious people.

I'm glad you gave us a heads up, Luca! So thanks once again.

As Luca said, let's wait for a defensive speech. If there's none, then we have some proof.

Let's put it this way: If I read such suspicions about me, I would raise one hell of a  noise and defend myself. That's what every honest person would do, right?

-Harry

So let's wait and be more careful in the future... Too bad there's wrong kind of opportunism in everything we human beings do. That's why "spam" exists, too... :(

Oh well, I got my seeds from Denise (let's hope they are what they are supposed to be) and I know I sent mine properly. If they get lost, I can't be held responsible for failures of the postal service.

Keen on getting a response from Denise with some sort of defense. If she (that is, if it's really a woman behind this) doesn't say anything as a defense, I know my seeds, along with the seeds of many others, will be sold.



-Sale

Sale, which varieties have you received from Denise?

I got some

- Malagueta
- Dedo Moca Amarela
- Dedo Moca Vermelha
- Cambuci (handwriting unclear, could be something else)

The seeds are in small, clear plastic bags that are made of a harder plastic than "normal" baggies. The plastic seems to be cellophane. The seeds arrived in a blue envelope and was sent (according to the postmark) August 4th.



-Sale

Okay, these are actually the most readily available varieties in supermarkets and other groceries...

Lainaus käyttäjältä: "luca"Okay, these are actually the most readily available varieties in supermarkets and other groceries...

So you mean that Sauli has probably gotten seeds from pods bought from grocerie stores?
Damn! Well.. if they do grow, maybe it's not so horrible. Afterall the differences of self and industrially grown plants are not that big. I think.

First I thought that those seeds could have been self-grown, but taken from immature or sterile pods. But actually I can't see the benefit of sending sterile seeds.. wouldn't it have been more sensible to send "working" seeds and take the mature pod to yourself. Ofcourse.. she could just eat the immature pod and send the sterile seeds just to be mean.

Hope that this DENISEVOLEI isn't really selling these seeds.. just loves to grow hundreds of plants. Maybe she is growing to sell the pods.. would that be so terrible?? Well.. ofcourse she should even mention it so we all could make our minds about should we send any seeds.

This is certainly a very distrurbing situation, and we all hope to get some defenses or answers from her. But personally I think that our hopes do nothing.. I doubt that we will ever hear from her again.. not even mentioning her to apologise if our suspicions turn to be true.

Lainaus käyttäjältä: "luca"Okay, these are actually the most readily available varieties in supermarkets and other groceries...

On some forums she was offering rare Brazilian seeds for trade. Maybe those seeds are rare in supermarkets of other countries, but I would not still call them rare Brazilians.

In a PM she offered me:
... MALAGUETA
,,, MALAGUETINHA
... DEDO DE MOCA
... PIMENTA-PIMENTAO
... CAMBUCI
... JALAPENO
... CUMARI PASSARINHO
... CAYENNE
... BODE AMARELA
... PERA

Luckily I did not trade with her yet, because I was waiting for my pods to ripen for seed collection.

I found it all very curious but would have just sent her some seeds anyway so nothing to lose. I chalked some of it up to language differences. I have seen other chile heads get addicted and scramble all over the web to add varieties to their collections. She sent me the following in two shipments following a misunderstanding:

Malaguetinha       
Malagueta          
Vulcao         
Dedo De Moca,red          
Cambuci          
Pimenta Mesa         
Espanhola         
Fidalgo         
Cumari Passarinho         
Branca         
Biquinho         
Pera         
Bode,Yellow         
Cheiro Vermelha         
7 Molhos   


She also received the seeds I sent her. And I sent her some extras after receiving her second shipment. But have not heard from her since.

A few years back I had the experience you suspect. I am a member of Seed Savers Exchange--I had a man order several varieties from me and then found he was starting a seed business. Looking at his listing I found several of the varieties he had ordered from me selling for 5 seeds for $3. Seed Savers Exchange was forced to add a rule saying you could not resell seeds ordered from other members prior to growing them out yourself.

John F quoted, "I have seen other chile heads get addicted and scramble all over the web to add varieties to their collections."   :)

Is there a name for that condition.lol.  I may be familiar with it.   However, I never sell any seeds and have no intention of profiting.   Also, one can definitely see I grow many, many varieties so they're put to good use.  

Growing stuff can be like a jigsaw puzzle when you really get into the hobby.  Gotta find all the pieces. lol.  

I'm glad to hear the trade was fulfilled.  I have had 5+ experiences where I didn't even that have happen.  But so many more where it was well worth it.  A risk worth taking IMO.  

Chris

Chris

It's called addiction and I am also a victim of it. Just have to have the ones you don't have.
I have been at it for several years in different ways and have made very many trades all over the world with only a handful of bad experiences- as you say worth the trouble. I have also made friends all over the world because of this hobby.

...I dont know what is happen... i dont SELL SEEDS of ANY species.. you are wrong!! and all the seeds that i change is mine and it is NOT Hybrid.. all my first seeds i bought a long time ago with chilli farmers here in brazil.. ceara, amazonas, sao paulo, minas e goias, tambem no Mercado Livre in Brazil and on E-bay USA and England.. . i plant them and i have a lot of.. i dont need to sell seeds its not my interest cause i have a doctoral degree in social  psychologist and a master of of physical Education i dont have time to do it.. i work on both professions, peppers or seeds its not my interest its only my hobby.. changing seeds and planting them..
I dont have a misterious disappear.. i dont spend my time 24 hours a day in internet, i have 3 jobs and 1 social project, . i have a real life.. i have real friends,, real familly and really jobs,, i dont spend my life telling speculations, making gossips or monitored pepper seeds on net
there are some reason that i dont posted in foruns anymore, but i dont need to make any explanations but one of this reasons is that i stop do to changes cause i send a lot of seeds a lot! spend my time my money - it costs about 1 dollar each - and i only receive back 5.. in all the foruns that i belong.. I posted more than 35 packs full of seeds.  So decide to stop and only change with this 5 people who really send me back the seeds.. 3 from USA 2 from Europe..
In this forum i send for 2 people and I DONT RECEIVE ANY >> NO SEEDS BACK..!! i dont have a reason to lie..
So i decide too.. make a social project here and give all MY seeds to a poor families that dont have jobs and dont have food to eat, and live near my propriety,  i have in my project 30 families so i give them my brazillian pepper seeds and seeds of carrots, lettuce, tomatoes, cucumber, beans and what i have.. i have a social responsability and i'm making my part of it! they study, they plant .. they eat some and sell others.. DIGNITY.. word that many persons doesnt know..
I think that we would take care about yourselves its ugly to tell things that we dont know or things that we suppose.. and dont need to control everything to make things come easy to me.. and i dont need to put people in every place asking seeds for my forum.. cause i dont have one,,
i`m not a opportunist.. like some are... i`m what i am.. and i have a really good friends in others forum .. i dont need telling lies to obtain things and i`m not jeallous if someone obtain more seeds.. more changes or have more species them I have..
i DONT have Hybrid Plants or Hybrid Seeds cause i ISOLATED all of my plants and seeds.. i dont know why are you telling that i Never change ANY seeds with you, i dont know you..  and in portuguese forum i give up a long time ago.. its boaring.. i dont have any interest to post there..  this forum, the have 2 or 3 owners,   i only change with 2 or 3 people cause there all the seeds that appears  stops on 2 or 3 people .. and if they plant them they will see that they are NOT hybrid..
and all the seeds that  i receive i dont change..
I guarantee that all the seeds that i post is NOT HYBRID, have a good quality and all belong to the real variety that i wrote outside the mini packs.
I know john, different from the another guy that i dont know, john is respectable man, study pepper, love them and are honest.. John all the seeds that i send to you belongs to the real variety, they are NOT hybrid and have good quality.. and all the seeds that you send to me I plant i, i isolate them . eveything is isolated and they are growing fast, specially the annuns...very very tall..wondenderful... thanks!!
you are great!
Regards
denise



"Dont send to the pigs things that they dont know how to eat!

i posted this for Sarkka a time ago...

 http://www.infernochili.tk Forum Index
Sent :: Message
From: DENISEVOLEI
To: Sauli Särkkä
Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 11:26 am
Subject: Re: seeds  
hi

... ohhhhh ok!! i hope...
i hate when its happen too..
i will stop to do changes cause i posted more than 20 letters a lot of seeds and only receive back 4..
regards
denise

Jes, Denise, and I sent you the seeds, as promised. I don't think I have any kind of credibility problems here in Finland, as the appointed secretary of the future Finnish Chili Association.

Who else sent you seeds you didn't receive?



-Sale

Denise,

First of all, I'd like to point out that nobody said that you have been trying to cheat.  What I said was that people were suspicious of your behaviour, namely going to many different forums and asking for a lot of seeds.

Due to these suspicious behaviour and the fact that someone has been selling seeds he/she received for free from member of various forums (and this is a fact), I decided to warn people that someone (not necessarily you) has been doing that.

Also the fact that you did not receive seeds from lots of peole who have sent you makes people open their eyes, because someone in the postal chain is keeping the seeds.  I have been sending lots of envelopes with seeds (as well as normal letters) to Brazil and there has only been one case in which the recipient did not get them.  It sounds strange that so many packages disappear in such a short time and addressed to the same recipient.  Again, I'd like to stress that I'm not saying that you are receiving them and pretending you are not, but someone is.  Things don't simply disappear like that.

I'm glad you have come up to defend yourself and this certainly brings a lot more credibility to you.  I was not the person who started all this and my only objective was to try to protect the free trade of chile seeds and avoid people being cheated.  I don't have anything to be jealous of you, because as you said I don't even know you except for a few messages we exchanged in Internet forums.  I have absolutely no idea how many different varieties you have and whether you're a trustworthy person or not (I don't know you).  And it is not the number or kind of degrees one person has that will prove their character.  If you really do as you say, using your time on social work, distributing seeds and helping poor people, I can only appreciate it.

The forum I maintain is not mine except for the fact that I use my time to maintain it, I spend my money to make backups, to pay for the internet connection, on electricity bills, wear and tear of my servers etc.  The forum is completely open for anyone to join (as far as he/she has a valid email address) and is made and kept alive by the community, not by myself.  If this community starts to complain about the behaviour of one member it is my duty as the forum administrator to take action.  And so I did, by deactivating such user's account and sending an email informing about this action and asking for an explanation and defense.  I only got an answer weeks later and without any real argument.

I apologize if I was mistaken when bringing up your name, but I'm still absolutely sure that I was right in bringing up the problem of seeds received for free being sold for high prices.

Best regards,
Luca.

I see someone is sellingBrazilian Pepper seeds:

http://journals.aol.com/deni1edfis2psi3/pepper-seeds-from-brazil-and-aro/entries/2006/09/12/cambuci-pepper---pimenta-cambuci/917

Does anybody recognise the author  :wink:

The images and descriptions she uses are certainily very familar. :evil:

Mark

Seems an odd site. I could not find prices or means of ordering.

Hmmm... this is really interesting.

It seems that the user posting those offers is the same Denise we were talking about before.  Check out the user name:

deni1edfis2psi3

deni = Denise
edfis = Educação Física (physical education)
psi = psicologia (psychology)

Lainaus käyttäjältä: "DENISEVOLEI"...i have a doctoral degree in social psychologist and a master of of physical Education...

Looks very much like the same person to me.  Maybe that means that our previous suspicions might have been correct after all...

That is very interesting and clever to thinking from Luca to notice the connections. I doubt that the user name could just be a coincidence.

Lainaus käyttäjältä: "DENISEVOLEI"
So i decide too.. make a social project here and give all MY seeds to a poor families that dont have jobs and dont have food to eat, and live near my propriety,  i have in my project 30 families so i give them my brazillian pepper seeds and seeds of carrots, lettuce, tomatoes, cucumber, beans and what i have.. i have a social responsability and i'm making my part of it! they study, they plant .. they eat some and sell others.. DIGNITY.. word that many persons doesnt know..

I hope all of the money she gets from selling the seeds go to this social project. Or did she make the poor people to grow the plants, so she gets more seeds to sell...

I'm very impressed-Luca the cryptographer!

Lainaus käyttäjältä: "JohnF"I'm very impressed-Luca the cryptographer!

Heh! It was not so hard after all ;-)

Another interesting thing to notice is that *all* the pictures in that "journal" are taken from somebody else's sites.  There's a link to the chileman.org (cambuci), a few to Embrapa's site and a few from Graeme (g6csy).

Lainaus käyttäjältä: "luca"

Lainaus käyttäjältä: "JohnF"I'm very impressed-Luca the cryptographer!

Heh! It was not so hard after all ;-)

Another interesting thing to notice is that *all* the pictures in that "journal" are taken from somebody else's sites.  There's a link to the chileman.org (cambuci), a few to Embrapa's site and a few from Graeme (g6csy).

Does she, at any point, claim to have taken those photos herself or does she give credit to the instance that deserves it?


-Sale

Lainaus käyttäjältä: "Sauli Särkkä"Does she, at any point, claim to have taken those photos herself or does she give credit to the instance that deserves it?

I have not seen any mention about the copyright of those pictures or any information about where the pictures come from.

So, I believe she's using copyrighted material without permission.