Ulupica de Bolivia

[JohnF]

Blooming but, again, not forming pods. I am beginning to wonder if this is really C. cardenasii

[Amd]

soooou beautiful flower, you have very interesting species in your garden, keep posting pics

[Aji Inferno]

Looks to me like c.eximium (cardenasii)... There just seems to be quite a selection of those devils out there. John, is there some specific reason you think this might not be an eximium? We have our own problem child here called CGN19198. Almost certainly an eximium of some kind, but a strange one...

[JohnF]

I believe C. eximium and C. cardenasii are separate species.

[Aji Inferno]

I believe C. eximium and C. cardenasii are separate species.

A.T.Hunziker considered them as one species in his "The Genera of Solanaceae" (2001) and it seems like at least Brazilean researchers have followed his classifications from then on... I haven't seen any usable documentation about the differences between eximium and cardenasii forms, either. That all has lead me to believe that Hunziker may be right, after all. Then again, I do believe that there are countless different forms, some wild, some semi-domesticated, about this plant around in Bolivia. It might even explain the eximium/cardenasii naming mess - alone the wild and semi-domesticated forms may be so different that some researchers have named them as separate species...

So, in a sense I agree with you: there are more forms of this plant than just one. Whether they're different species or just different forms of the same plant, I can't tell. Do you have some reliable new information about this eximium/cardnenasii -duo and how to tell them apart? Getting curious because I think these are among the most interesting wild capsicums!

[JohnF]

I am hesitant to debate you on this issue, not being a biologist. All of my references list them as separate species ( I have not seen the work you cite). Bosland and Votava in " Peppers: Vegetable ans Spice Capsicums" indicate that C. cardenasii is self- incompatible while C. eximium is self-compatible. This seems to be so my experience and if true would give you your distinguishing characteristic.

This winter I plan to grow a selection of the wild species inside and do some experimenting.

[Aji Inferno]

I am hesitant to debate you on this issue, not being a biologist. All of my references list them as separate species ( I have not seen the work you cite). Bosland and Votava in " Peppers: Vegetable ans Spice Capsicums" indicate that C. cardenasii is self- incompatible while C. eximium is self-compatible. This seems to be so my experience and if true would give you your distinguishing characteristic.

This winter I plan to grow a selection of the wild species inside and do some experimenting.

I'm not a biologist either, but after reading some very recent works of Brazilean chili researchers, I've got the impression that they respect late Prof. Hunziker's last and major work "The Genera..." very much, as the first complete basic classification of Capsicum (and related plants).

Here's a quote from Hunziker's original text. It's not exactly "easy reading" and the book itself is a huge brick... But a very interesting one - I recommend everyone to try to borrow it from a local university.

"The genus Capsicum is clearly characterised by the entire calyx usually with appendices or teeth, by the conspicuous stapet, by the berries mostly with giant cells in the mesocarp, and by its chromosomes (2n = 24, 26). Its generic delimitation was in a state of chaos, until a few years ago; once more, the neglect of botanists to make detailed dissections of the flower and fruit, has been responsible for the confusion and disorder in which these plants have been entangled: species belonging to six very different genera, were usually included under the name Capsicum. After defining the delimitation of Witheringia L'Heritier (Hunziker, 1969), the picture began to be clarified and was further completed when Vassobia Sendt. (Hunziker, 1977), Athenaea (Barboza y Hunziker, 1989) and Aureliana (Hunziker y Barboza, 1991) were properly understood.

At present, Capsicum is a natural assemblage of ca. 20 species and a few varieties, growing from southern Mexico to Central Argentina; four centers of diversity may be recognized: 1.- Mexico, southern United States, Central America, West Indies, and Western South America (from Colombia to Peru), nine species, i.e.: C. annuum var. frutescens (L.) Kuntze, C. annuum var. glabriusculum (Dunal) D'Arcy (common names: "bird pepper", "chile piquin"), C. dimorphum (Miers) Kuntze, C. geminifolium (Dammer) Hunz., C. galapagoense Hunz., C. hookerianum (Miers) Kuntze, C. lanceolatum (Greenm.) Morton et Standl., C. rhomboideum (Dunal) Kuntze, C. tovari Eshb., Smith et Nickr. and C. scolnikianum Hunz. 2.- North-eastern Brazil, and coastal Venezuela: C. parvifolium Sendt. 3.- Eastern coastal Brazil, six species: C. baccatum var. praetermissum (Heiser et Smith) Hunz. (common name: "comarim"), C. campylopodium Sendt., C. dusenii Bitter, C. mirabile Mart., C. schottianum Sendt., and C. villosum Sendt. 4.- Southern Bolivia, Eastern Paraguay, and Northern and Central Argentina, four species: C. baccatum L. [with two varieties: var. baccatum (= C. baccatum var. pendulum (Willd.) Eshb.) and var. umbilicatum (Vellozo) Hunz. et Barboza], C. chacoënse Hunz. (common names: "quitucho", "ají del monte", "keuí"), C. eximium Hunz. (= C. cardenasii Heiser et Smith, common name: "ulupica"), and C. flexuosum Sendt.

The flowers of Capsicum are melittophilous (Cocucci, 1999: 16, f. 2). Capsicum pubescens Ruiz et Pay. is the only species known so far with three different style lengths.

The cultivated peppers belong to three species: the most common is C. annuum L. (popular names for pungent cultivars: "chile", "chili", "aji", "pepper", "paprika"; for non pungent cultivars: "sweet pepper", "bell pepper", "pimiento") with two or three varieties and most closely related, on morphological grounds, to the following two wild species: C. chacoënse in the south, and C. annuum var. glabriusculum in the north; the two other cultivated species are C. baccatum L. (two cultivated varieties also known in the wild state, and one known solely as cultivated) and C. pubescens Ruiz et Pay. (common names: "rocoto", "locoto"). The variation of pepper cultivars –above all the ones of C. annuum– in fruit size, shape colour and degrees of pungency is enormous (Cochran, 1940; Smith, Villalon et al., 1987)."

Hunziker didn't quite finish his task of "definitive classification of capsicum", and some leading Brazilean researchers are now continuing that task. Still, this seems to be among the latest - and at least in South America - most up-to-date scientific works about solanaceae and capsicum. After all, the latest recently found wild capsicum has been named as capsicum hunzikerianum... A proper tribute to a man who spent his whole life trying to find out what these devils are all about...

Your information about self-(in)compatible forms of this plant is interesting, because it seems like there's similar behavior in closely related c.pubescens plants as well... Some do fine on their own, some need another plant. I guess we just have to wait and see where this all leads to. Then again, we can make our own tests as well - and who knows... We might find out something the researchers haven't yet seen. In that sense, everything we do in our gardens is not only interesting - it can also be important... Starting from your c.lanceolatum!

[JohnF]

Thanks for the interesting material. Dr. Bosland considers C. eximium and C. cardenasii to be part of the 'pubescens complex' and mentions the fact that there is variability in self compatibility with the pubescens. I have a friend who loves and  has grown many of them and he concurs though he has only found two varieties so far that are self incompatible.

I started some experiments on the wild peppers a few winters ago but acquired a mite infestation and had to dispose of all the plants. I did obtain a fruit on a Ulupica which I pollintated with C. pubescens ( ala Rocopica) but only obtained one seed and have not grown it out. Wishing I had a green house rather than a kitchen.

john

[H-Bomb]

Interesting information, indeed

I am growing one cardenasii at the moment. I actually got the seeds from you, John (thanks again!). It was labeled only as Capsicum cardenasii, so I do not know where it is from (no accession number etc.). Do you have any idea about its origin?

My plant is starting to flower now (several buds already) and I will add some photos of it on my site as soon as the first ones open.

But back to the biology. Classification of the genus Capsicum is a complex issue and I think it'll take years or even decades before we get any definite answers. It is very interesting to read the most recent documents on this subject and learn more. But still many of these classifications are partly differences in views. When it comes to eximium and cardenasii, I will still label them as two species, but I will keep in mind that they might be the same species and wait for further information. That way I can do my own "research" with these wild species by growing and photographing them.  

Let's keep our minds open, grow every chile pepper we can get our hands on and learn more with every plant. With good photos and documentation, our hobby might even help some of these scientists in their work. Keep up the good work with your wild peppers, John!  

I'll try to do my best with mine.  :roll:

-Harry

[JohnF]

Hi Harry

CAP 503 C. eximium taken yesterday. The flower seems quite different to me.



My records show I sent you 3 varieties of C. cardenasii but don't say which. If It does not have a prefix it is the one I received from Graeme Castelton years ago simply as "Cardenasii". Here is a link that shows  those I have grown

http://www.virtualpepper.org/classifications.php?id=13&forum_lang=english

[H-Bomb]

Hi John!

Yep, your eximium has flowers that differ quite a lot from your cardenasii flowers in this topic. And that's the main reason I still label them as separate species.

The cardenasii I am now growing must be from Graeme. Thanks for the info! The other two didn't want to germinate for this season, but I still have 1-2 seeds of each left, so keep your thumbs up before next season :wink:

Paul Smith's (from NMSU) pepper identification key states as follows:

C. EXIMIUM
AA. Corolla base with distinct single spot or continuous basal zone, anthers yellow (except C. pubescens).
BB. Basal spots distinct, pale green or yellow
C. Corolla white to pale lavender to purple, spots pale green, seeds tan
D. Corolla lavender to purple,*** calyx teeth 1.2-1.8 mm.

*** Flower color in wild C. eximium may range from typical lavender
    through various intergrades to purple.  This is clearly the influence of
    natural hybridization with C. pubescens

C. CARDENASII
AAA. Corolla lobes with 2 distinct spots at the base, seeds tan to brown
BB. Corolla urn shaped, cream to violet
CC. Corolla campanulate, lavender

Regards,
-Harry

[JohnF]

Different view of the C. eximium. My main camera fell on the tile floor in the kitchen and had to be sent in for repairs so I'm stuggling with these pictures--using a reversed lens and now a macro converter.

[Aji Inferno]

Great photos and very interesting...

It's clear that there are different types of "c.eximium/cardenasii" around. Whether they're different species is the question. Paul Smith's formula didn't quite satisfy me, mainly for one reason. I'll give you an example:

Please see the following photos:



Would you, honestly, think that these photos are from one single capsicum species..? Look closely. One flower with pink petals without spots, another with separated green spota, and third with white (!) petals with funny shape...

I scanned those pictures. They're all from just three of my many capsicum praetermissums. They look like entirely different plants. As you can see, even the anthers don't share the same colour! But... they are praetermissums, as hard as it was for me to accept it. Some have pubescent leaves, some smooth ones - and so on.

Praetermissum is an example of a semi-domesticated wild capsicum. Therefore (I guess) its forms vary very much in appearance. Eximium is also a semi-domesticated capsicum. If c.praetermissum can include forms with or without spots, white or purple flowers, purple or white stamens and hairy or non-hairy leaves... (making it a nightmare for proper recognition) Why would c.eximium be that much different?

Or maybe it is. I just don't know - I only wonder... You know, the five c.praetermissums I grew the last season made me scratch my head more than once. The plants were so totally different (even the berries) that I would definitely have categorized them as at least 2 or 3 different plant species. Just look at the pictures above and you'll understand why. The differences didn't stop in the flowers...

But praetermissums they all were. The white-flowered strange form seemed to represent the wildest type with tiny, round berries. The rest resembled more and less c.eximium (cardenasii) and even c.pubescens. To the extent that it was impossible to tell the species from the flowers, but only from the general growing habits of the plants. From my own limited experience, P.Smith's formula could fit some c.praetermissums as well as c.eximium/cardenasii - and no wonder there. Many people and organizations have confused those species (like CGN in 19198's case). Those species might, in the end, be more closely related than we know.

One thing is also clear. There are conflicting categorizations of capsicum around these days. For example, some quite famous sources of information don't count species like c.rhomboideum (ciliatum) into capsicum at all, whereas others like Hunziker do. The researchers simply don't agree on everything here, yet. In that mess, we can only "pick our sides". I chose to follow Hunziker's categorization, since it made sense to me and, apparently, many others. Then again, some very well-known chili researchers seem to share a totally different view into "what is what" in capsicums. New information is found all the time, now, so the "truth" is out there somewhere...

[H-Bomb]

To mix it up even a little more:

Have you Tommi checked out some other photos of PI 441654? By googling it, you can find some completely different flowers. One white, one half-lavender with green spots and also yours. It seems to me that either it is a cross or then there are mixed seeds in the market. :?

John, have you grown your both PI 441654's from same seeds? By searching your gallery I came up with two completely different flowers:

PI441654

I think that none of these identification keys is accurate at the moment, but as Tommi said; we have to choose sides. I've chosen my path, but I don't follow it blindly. I can easily admit that Smith's key has flaws.

For example one of my theories is that eximium and praetermissum might be different forms of one species. Cardenasii might be included, but I have trouble in accepting the urn-shaped / campanulate corolla as a form of eximium. And that's just how I feel.

One interesting thing is that there is a note in Smith's key that admits the natural hybridisation between eximium and pubescens. And that is partly the reason for the identification mess we have nowadays. These hybrids makes it more difficult to say which is which. All I can say is: Let's hope the Brazilian researchers come up with some new interesting data. If we won't get seeds (yet), it would be at least polite to take some photos and let people and other researchers see what's growing in the jungles of Brazil / South America.

But let's keep growing (and photographing) these precious little jewels and keep in mind that the determining of Capsicum species is not that easy. Things change and in a few years we might have a completely different view on the subject. Who knows?  

-Harry

[JohnF]

Ok, a couple more cans of worms.

Can # 1

You are correct, Harry--two flowers and two pods. I have seeds directly from the USDA and also from a friend but I don't think that is the problem

version one flower


version 1 pods


version 2 flower


version 2 pods


Now, if you go to the USDA site you will see that what was once classified as baccatum var. praetermisssum , is now baccatum var. baccatum. And if you look at their pictures you will see both pod types---unfortunately they don't show the flowers

http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/npgs/acc/search.pl?accid=PI+441654


Can #2

Awhile back I grew out several of the baccatum var. praetermissum and C. praetermissum to compare. This is another unresolved issue.

http://www.virtualpepper.org/classifications.php?id=16&forum_lang=english